Re: [SystemSafety] qualification (of people) (was: Re: RE : Qualifying SW as "proven in use"

From: Rolf Spiker < >
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:17:49 +0000


Hi Bertrand,

I think we have in Europe (including UK!) and the US the following electro/electronic technical education ranking:

You are appointed as a Professor (mostly with a PhD degree) You have a PhD degree
You have a Master degree
You have a Bachelor degree
You have lower technical education.
We call that here in The Netherlands : Secondary technical education.

What is " top ranking" in your comment.

I have met Bachelor and Master degree software programmers and lower.

Regards
                Rolf Spiker
Rolf Spiker of Exida.com
Senior Safety Consultant & Partner

Phone : +31 (0)318 414 505 
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-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:24 AM
To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] qualification (of people) (was: Re: RE : Qualifying SW as "proven in use"

There are countries, like France, were "engineer" is not a controlled activity (as physician or lawyer of pharmacist or architect). Thus the concept of chartered doesn't exist and anybody can legally call himself "engineer".

However engineers coming out of top ranking schools exist and are competent but more expensive than "programmers". Roughly 50 % at least. WIth the consequence that the market has organised as follows:

* No top ranking will usually go to a "programming" activity (beside maybe working for Airbus or something like that) because it is not paid enough
* A top ranking engineer will usually, if hired in a small business, be immediately responsible for P&L and some "programmers", and not care about technical matters.
* Nobody will hire a top ranking engineer for programming activities when you can have a "programmer" for half or 2/3 of the cost.


....

Bertrand RICQUE
Program Manager, Optronics and Defense Division  
T +33 (0)1 58 11 96 82
M +33 (0)6 87 47 84 64
23 avenue Carnot
91300 MASSY - FRANCE
http://www.sagem-ds.com  

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] qualification (of people) (was: Re: RE : Qualifying SW as "proven in use"  

-----Original Message-----
From: systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx [mailto:systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx Thomas
Sent: 27 June 2013 16:53
To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: [SystemSafety] qualification (was: Re: RE : Qualifying SW as "proven in use"

I recall that there are a few engineering standards that require that the chief engineer on a project is Chartered. That might be a good start ...

Martyn

[CAH] The problem is that for (for example)

The fitter fitting a Gas Boiler has to be Registered/Certified The electrician wiring up a Gas Boiler has to be Registered/Certified  The programmer writing the Sw to control the Gas Boiler has to be.... reasonably house trained?

The problem we had was due to Clive Sinclair. When he produced his zx80/81 Spectrum anyone who could copy type a program from the magazine into one of those home computers was "A Programmer" and it all went downhill from there. Self taught enthusiasts with no processes and many bad programming habits.

This is why things like the Rasberry Pi is a bad thing as we will get a new generation of enthusiastic untrained people usually with a myriad of bad [programming] habits becoming Programmers.

If we start insisting that Senior SW Engineers and project leaders etc are Chartered things might change. Whilst there are a few unsuitable people who are Chartered and a few good people will not make the Chartered when the changes are made over time it will improve things and the industry all together. I note that many countries are starting to look at Certifying/Registering Sw people particularly for safety related projects.

It will have to come. If not now when?

Regards
 Chris Hills

On 27/06/2013 12:35, Peter Bernard Ladkin wrote:
> Scenarios such as those Bertrand describes are not that far-fetched.
Unfortunately, there are in some places senior management who are in the same state of (lack of) expertise as Bertrand describes. That is a problem of professional qualification which I would prefer to treat as a separate issue.



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