Re: [SystemSafety] Safety Cases

From: RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) < >
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 13:05:03 +0100


It seems to me that at the end of the reasoning, the standard xyz (e.g. IEC 61508) requests some work to be done available in documents (whatever the name). Standard xyz contains (strong) requirements on 1 and (weaker) requirements on 2 but at least requirements on the means and methods to achieve 1.

It looks circular.

In the understanding of stakeholders being compliant to standard xyz means not doing a lot of engineering stuff that is unfortunately explicit or implicit in the standard xyz. But most often they even never read it. This is also an explanation about the observed gap in the industry.

Bertrand Ricque
Program Manager
Optronics and Defence Division
Sights Program
Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
Tel : +33 1 59 11 96 82
Bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx

From: systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 12:16 PM To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: [SystemSafety] Safety Cases

In the National Academies / CSTB Report Software for Dependable Systems: Sufficient Evidence? (http://sites.nationalacademies.org/cstb/CompletedProjects/CSTB_042247) we said that every claim about the properties of a software-based system that made it dependable in its intended application should be stated unambiguously, and that every such claim should be shown to be true through scientifically valid evidence that was made available for expert review.

It seems to me that this was a reasonable position, but I recognise that it is a position that cannot be adopted by anyone whose livelihood depends on making claims for which thay have insufficient evidence (or for which no scientifically valid evidence could be provided). Unfortunately, much of the safety-related systems industry is in this position (and the same is true, mutatis mutandis, for security).

It seems to me that some important questions about dependability are these:

1 What properties does the system need to have in order for it to be adequately dependable for its intended use? (and how do you know that these properties will be adequate?) 2 What evidence would be adequate to show that it had these properties? 3 It it practical to aquire that evidence and, if not, what is the strongest related property for which it would be practical to provide strong evidence that the property was true? 4 What are we going to do about the gap between 1 and 3?

The usual answer to 4 is "rely on having followed best practice, as described in Standard XYZ". That's an understandable position to take, for practical reasons, but I suggest that professional ingegrity requires that the (customer, regulator or other stakeholder) should be shown the chain of reasoning 1-4 (and the evidence for all the required properties for which strong evidence can be provided) and asked to acknowledge that this is good enough for their purposes.

I don't care what you choose to call the document in which this information is given, so long as you don't cause confusion by overloading some name that the industry is using for something else.

I might refer to the answers to question 1 as a "goal", if I were trying to be provocative.

Martyn

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systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Received on Fri Feb 07 2014 - 13:05:16 CET

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