Re: [SystemSafety] Statistical Assessment of SW ......

From: Peter Bishop < >
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 14:50:55 +0000

Determinism is tricky if you include hardware (especially embedded system hardware).
One source of non-determinism is input measurement accuracy. Multiple "correct" responses are possible if a deterministic threshold (like trip or no-trip) relies on a real world input value.

This can be a real problem when testing an embedded system.

Peter Bishop

> Does a deterministic software exist ?
> If it is intrinsically deterministic, does a deterministic execution
> of this SW on a given hardware exist ?
> Bertrand Ricque Program Manager Optronics and Defence Division Sights
> Program Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64 Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82
> Bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx >
> -----Original Message----- From:
> systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx > [mailto:systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx > Behalf Of Peter Bernard Ladkin Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 7:43 AM
> To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx > [SystemSafety] Statistical Assessment of SW ......
> On 2015-01-21 14:15 , jean-louis Boulanger wrote:

>> For software it's not possible to have statistical evidence. the
>> failure is 1 (yes the software have fault and failure appear)

> This argument came up again yesterday in a standards-committee
> meeting. It is usually attributed to third party "engineers with whom
> I work", because nobody quite seems to claim they hold the view
> themselves when I'm in the room :-) ....
> So it might be worthwhile to adduce the proof - again. It's real
> short.
> Suppose you have a piece of SW S which is deterministic. And S is
> also not perfect, so it outputs right answers on some inputs and
> wrong answers on others. And S reverts to an initial state with no
> memory of its previous behavior each time it produces its output.
> Suppose the distribution of inputs to S has a stochastic character.
> That is, the input I is a random variable. Then the output outS(I),
> which is a function of the input I, also has stochastic character. A
> deterministic transformation of a random variable is itself a random
> variable.
> Let us transform outS(I) further, deterministically. Define CorrS(I)
> = 1 if outS(I) is correct CorrS(I) = 0 if outS(I) is incorrect
> Then again CorrS(I) has also a stochastic nature and is a random
> variable.
> Thus, if the input to a piece of SW has stochastic nature, then so
> does the correctness behavior of the SW.
> QED.
> The only reasonable objection to this argument which I have heard is
> to dispute whether inputs have a stochastic nature.
> So, say you build a railway locomotive control system. The piece of
> track the locomotive runs on has a fixed architecture, so the
> argument would run that the behavior of the locomotive is more or
> less determined within certain parameters (whether signal X is red or
> green) and does not have a stochastic nature. But various parameters
> such as the condition of the track, the nature of the load on the
> locomotive, and other environmental conditions such as wind speed and
> weather (icy track, or dry track, and when icy where the ice is) make
> it practically all but impossible to predict the inputs to the
> control system. Besides, at design time the design does not involve
> designing to the specific route the locomotive will run on. The
> designer is ignorant of the application. So the inputs to the control
> system as known at design time have a stochastic nature if you are a
> Bayesian.
> I would like to remark here, again, on a couple of incoherences in
> IEC 61508 and "derivative" standards.
> Something which executes a safety function must consist of both HW
> and SW, because SW alone cannot take action. A HW-SW element which
> executes a safety function is assigned a reliability goal, which is
> mostly encapsulated in the SIL. These reliability goals are the
> safety requirements. A reliability goal is expressed in terms of
> probability of function failure per demand, or per unit time. Suppose
> that the correct functioning of the HW-SW element E is functionally
> dependent on the correct functioning of its SW S (which for most
> actuators it is). The standard requires one demonstrates that the
> reliability is attained (that the safety requirement is fulfilled).
> How this is actually done must be something like the following.
> We assume as above that the element E deterministically transforms
> its inputs. We define the function CorrE as above. Given a
> distribution of inputs Distr(I), then the probability that E
> functions correctly is given by (Integral over Distr(I) of the
> function CorrE(I)) divided by (Integral over Distr(I) of the constant
> 1).
> Notice that the probability of correct functioning, the safety
> requirement as laid down by IEC 61508, is dependent on Distr(I).
> Change Distr(I) and one can usually expect the probability to change.
> (For example, let Distr(I) be the Dirac Delta function on one
> incorrect input. Then the probability that E functions correctly is
> 0.)
> Yet in IEC 61508, and everywhere else, Distr(I) is not mentioned. Not
> once.
> This is incoherent.
> One could fix it, maybe, by just assuming the uniform distribution on
> all inputs, by default. Or the normal distribution. There may be
> reasons for this, but it is worth pointing out that Distr(I) in real
> applications is almost never uniform or normal. If there is a
> distribution D for which it can be argued that the real-world input
> distribution "almost always approximates D" then one could choose D
> as the default instead.
> The second incoherence is as follows. If the SW does not attain the
> safety requirement, then E does not attain the safety requirement,
> under a certain plausible assumption, namely that if CorrS(I) = 0,
> then CorrE(I) is almost always 0. (That is, the HW may sometimes
> fortuitously compensate for incorrect SW behavior, but mostly not.)
> Then in order for E to fulfil the safety requirement, it must be the
> case that
> (Integral over Distr(I) of the function CorrS(I)) divided by
> (Integral over Distr(I) of the constant 1) GEQ (Integral over
> Distr(I) of the function CorrE(I)) divided by (Integral over Distr(I)
> of the constant 1)- epsilon
> (epsilon is there to instantiate the "almost" part of the
> assumption).
> So, since the safety requirement on E has a probabilistic calculation
> as a component, so must the inherited safety requirement on S.
> Yet there is no requirement in IEC 61508 to substantiate that
> inherited safety requirement on S. The only condition on software
> safety requirements is the techniques which are recommended to be
> used during development of S.
> In particular, if you don't think that the execution of SW can have a
> stochastic nature, such as Jean-Louis, you are thereby committed to
> the view that IEC 61508 and its derivates are inherently incoherent.
> It must be a difficult world to live in ......
> Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Faculty of Technology, University of
> Bielefeld, 33594 Bielefeld, Germany Je suis Charlie Tel+msg +49
> (0)521 880 7319
> _______________________________________________ The System Safety
> Mailing List systemsafety_at_xxxxxx > les documents qui lui sont joints peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles, être soumis aux règlementations relatives au
> contrôle des exportations ou ayant un caractère privé. S'ils ne vous
> sont pas destinés, nous vous signalons qu'il est strictement interdit
> de les divulguer, de les reproduire ou d'en utiliser de quelque
> manière que ce soit le contenu. Toute exportation ou réexportation
> non autorisée est interdite Si ce message vous a été transmis par
> erreur, merci d'en informer l'expéditeur et de supprimer
> immédiatement de votre système informatique ce courriel ainsi que
> tous les documents qui y sont attachés." ****** " This e-mail and any
> attached documents may contain confidential or proprietary
> information and may be subject to export control laws and
> regulations. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified
> that any dissemination, copying of this e-mail and any attachments
> thereto or use of their contents by any means whatsoever is strictly
> prohibited. Unauthorized export or re-export is prohibited. If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender
> immediately and delete this e-mail and all attached documents from
> your computer system." #
> _______________________________________________ The System Safety
> Mailing List systemsafety_at_xxxxxx

Peter Bishop
Chief Scientist
Adelard LLP
Exmouth House, 3-11 Pine Street, London,EC1R 0JH
Recep:  +44-(0)20-7832 5850
Direct: +44-(0)20-7832 5855
The System Safety Mailing List
Received on Fri Jan 23 2015 - 15:51:19 CET

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.0 : Tue Jun 04 2019 - 21:17:07 CEST