Re: [SystemSafety] Statistical Assessment of SW ......

From: Les Chambers < >
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:23:56 +1000

And then there's the issue of glue drift. Yes, you read that right: G L U E D R I F T.

This actually happened. A distributed control system consists of a bunker with supervisory computers and 300 remote terminal units (RTUs) performing the control tasks. Each RTU has a processor chip with a heat sink glued to it. Halfway through the production run the Shanghai factory gets a batch of defective glue. The RTUs are deployed and under normal operating conditions some of the heat sinks start falling off the processor chips and rattling around inside the card cages, causing random failures. Recordkeeping in the factory did not extend to tracking when the defective glue was introduced into the manufacturing process.

Model that, you seekers after determinism!  


From: systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 9:12 AM To: Peter Bishop
Cc: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Statistical Assessment of SW ......  

With apologies to Peter Bishop, I meant to send this to the group but selected the wrong damn button*.  

Another non-trivial hardware problem is how to ensure a shared concept of time in a distributed system in the presence of clock drift. Said drift can lead to quite different responses to inputs from redundant identical components, based on their hitting a time gate at slightly different moments.  

*Likelihood of operator error 1x10-3/D (WASH1400 study App III).  

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 1:50 AM, Peter Bishop <pgb_at_xxxxxx

Determinism is tricky if you include hardware (especially embedded system hardware). One source of non-determinism is input measurement accuracy. Multiple "correct" responses are possible if a deterministic threshold (like trip or no-trip) relies on a real world input value.

This can be a real problem when testing an embedded system.

Peter Bishop


Does a deterministic software exist ?

If it is intrinsically deterministic, does a deterministic execution of this SW on a given hardware exist ?

Bertrand Ricque Program Manager Optronics and Defence Division Sights Program Mob : +33 6 <tel:%2B33%206%2087%2047%2084%2064> 87 47 84 64 Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82 <tel:%2B33%201%2058%2011%2096%2082> Bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx

-----Original Message----- From:
systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx [mailto:systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx Behalf Of Peter Bernard Ladkin Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 7:43 AM  To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx [SystemSafety] Statistical Assessment of SW ......

On 2015-01-21 14:15 , jean-louis Boulanger wrote:

For software it's not possible to have statistical evidence. the failure is 1 (yes the software have fault and failure appear)

This argument came up again yesterday in a standards-committee meeting. It is usually attributed to third party "engineers with whom I work", because nobody quite seems to claim they hold the view themselves when I'm in the room :-) ....

So it might be worthwhile to adduce the proof - again. It's real short.

Suppose you have a piece of SW S which is deterministic. And S is also not perfect, so it outputs right answers on some inputs and wrong answers on others. And S reverts to an initial state with no memory of its previous behavior each time it produces its output.

Suppose the distribution of inputs to S has a stochastic character. That is, the input I is a random variable. Then the output outS(I), which is a function of the input I, also has stochastic character. A deterministic transformation of a random variable is itself a random variable.

Let us transform outS(I) further, deterministically. Define CorrS(I) = 1 if outS(I) is correct CorrS(I) = 0 if outS(I) is incorrect

Then again CorrS(I) has also a stochastic nature and is a random variable.

Thus, if the input to a piece of SW has stochastic nature, then so does the correctness behavior of the SW.

QED. The only reasonable objection to this argument which I have heard is to dispute whether inputs have a stochastic nature.

So, say you build a railway locomotive control system. The piece of track the locomotive runs on has a fixed architecture, so the argument would run that the behavior of the locomotive is more or less determined within certain parameters (whether signal X is red or green) and does not have a stochastic nature. But various parameters such as the condition of the track, the nature of the load on the locomotive, and other environmental conditions such as wind speed and weather (icy track, or dry track, and when icy where the ice is) make it practically all but impossible to predict the inputs to the control system. Besides, at design time the design does not involve designing to the specific route the locomotive will run on. The designer is ignorant of the application. So the inputs to the control system as known at design time have a stochastic nature if you are a Bayesian.

I would like to remark here, again, on a couple of incoherences in IEC 61508 and "derivative" standards.

Something which executes a safety function must consist of both HW and SW, because SW alone cannot take action. A HW-SW element which executes a safety function is assigned a reliability goal, which is mostly encapsulated in the SIL. These reliability goals are the safety requirements. A reliability goal is expressed in terms of probability of function failure per demand, or per unit time. Suppose that the correct functioning of the HW-SW element E is functionally dependent on the correct functioning of its SW S (which for most actuators it is). The standard requires one demonstrates that the reliability is attained (that the safety requirement is fulfilled).

How this is actually done must be something like the following.

We assume as above that the element E deterministically transforms its inputs. We define the function CorrE as above. Given a distribution of inputs Distr(I), then the probability that E functions correctly is given by (Integral over Distr(I) of the function CorrE(I)) divided by (Integral over Distr(I) of the constant 1).

Notice that the probability of correct functioning, the safety requirement as laid down by IEC 61508, is dependent on Distr(I). Change Distr(I) and one can usually expect the probability to change.
(For example, let Distr(I) be the Dirac Delta function on one
incorrect input. Then the probability that E functions correctly is 0.)

Yet in IEC 61508, and everywhere else, Distr(I) is not mentioned. Not once.

This is incoherent.

One could fix it, maybe, by just assuming the uniform distribution on all inputs, by default. Or the normal distribution. There may be reasons for this, but it is worth pointing out that Distr(I) in real applications is almost never uniform or normal. If there is a distribution D for which it can be argued that the real-world input distribution "almost always approximates D" then one could choose D as the default instead.

The second incoherence is as follows. If the SW does not attain the safety requirement, then E does not attain the safety requirement, under a certain plausible assumption, namely that if CorrS(I) = 0, then CorrE(I) is almost always 0. (That is, the HW may sometimes fortuitously compensate for incorrect SW behavior, but mostly not.) Then in order for E to fulfil the safety requirement, it must be the case that

(Integral over Distr(I) of the function CorrS(I)) divided by
(Integral over Distr(I) of the constant 1) GEQ (Integral over
Distr(I) of the function CorrE(I)) divided by (Integral over Distr(I) of the constant 1)- epsilon

(epsilon is there to instantiate the "almost" part of the

So, since the safety requirement on E has a probabilistic calculation as a component, so must the inherited safety requirement on S.

Yet there is no requirement in IEC 61508 to substantiate that inherited safety requirement on S. The only condition on software safety requirements is the techniques which are recommended to be used during development of S.

In particular, if you don't think that the execution of SW can have a stochastic nature, such as Jean-Louis, you are thereby committed to the view that IEC 61508 and its derivates are inherently incoherent. It must be a difficult world to live in ......

PBL Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Faculty of Technology, University of Bielefeld, 33594 Bielefeld, Germany Je suis Charlie Tel+msg +49
(0)521 880 7319

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