Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

From: RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) < >
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:01:37 +0200


I totally support your position Jens.

There is still a lot to do and work is under progress. I am not sure that ED202 solves all the problems, but it creates processes. I am not sure that IEC 62443 solves all the problems, but it frames the picture. An so on …

The first issues of all these standards will certainly be improved in the next issues. For instance, it is clear that the appropriation of a common metamodel (like the one used by the NSA) would be a progress, like the adoption of the OSI model was a cornerstone for communication networks.

Nothing is never perfect and the sense of perfection is a question of perspective and of point of view. Perfection for end-users and for manufacturers could probably be safety AND security out of the box, for a lower cost than today.

This will not happen. Engineering is needed to solve the problems. The standards can suggest (meta)models to frame the problem, suggest processes to handle them, suggest methods and techniques to help achieve the objectives. They can also mandate the objectives, which would require a multi-sector, or at least sector, agreements on the objectives. We are far from that.

But, as you notice it, we are working on it. Anybody wanting to contribute is welcomed…

Bertrand Ricque
Program Manager
Optronics and Defence Division
Sights Program
Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82
Bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx

From: systemsafety-bounces_at_xxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 10:06 AM To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

As I am collaborating with Ingo Rolle in some committees, here is some additional information, both on IEC 61508 and the railway specific derivatives:

So I don’t understand the standardization bashing here, there are a lot of activities going on, there is some literature, and you may even get involved through your national committees…

Best regards

Jens Braband

PS These are my personal opinions, not necessarily those of my employer or other organizations, that I sometimes represent. Gesendet: Montag, 1. Juni 2015 14:19
An: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Betreff: Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

Since I’m secretary of the German mirror groups in charge of IEC 61508 and IEC 62443 I was asked to give a brief overview of principal differences between functional safety and IT security. I gave the following presentation before the TC 65 audience last year. The conclusion (i.e. my opinion) was that there are many principal differences, although some things may be coordinated. I tried to work through an example of a life-cycle considering both f.s. and IT security

The difference starts with the requirement that also non-safety functions must be protected against eavesdropping or data manipulation.

An overview of IEC 62443 may be here, although only in German: www.vde.com/62443<http://www.vde.com/62443>

I’m not aware of the difference between IT security and cyber security, perhaps somebody could tell me

Ingo Rolle (ingo.Rolle_at_xxxxxx

Gesendet: Montag, 1. Juni 2015 13:27
An: RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) Betreff: Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

I have previously held the position of safety assurance manager at a nuclear research laboratory. While my team was required to demonstrate that the consequences of any credible accident would not be unacceptable, my colleagues in the security team regarded our analysis as a security threat since we were identifying potential worst scenarios for any deliberate attack.

There is definitely a contradiction between safety and security I terms of openness - for safety we want to be seen to be safe, but he security world requires us to hide the specific vulnerabilities of our systems.

Andy

Sent from Andy's iPad

It is not that simple.

Safety is a roughly 2D problem ( probability x consequence), the two dimensions being usually stable along the unique system timescale.

Security is a 3D problem with sub dimensions (attacker(motivation, capability), vulnerability(inherent, introduced), consequence), these dimensions being variable along two different timescales (target system timescale, attacker timescale).

Bertrand Ricque
Program Manager
Optronics and Defence Division
Sights Program
Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
Tel : +33 1 58 11 96 82
Bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

I have always though that safety and security are two sides of the same coin. Often it is just a difference of emphasis or wording but the requirements are very similar if not the same. The trouble is “cyber security” is the new buzzword so we need a standard for it….. Surely it is better build on 61508 for something that is both safe and secure?

Or do you want something that is secure but unsafe? ☺

Regards

   Chris

Phaedrus Systems Ltd Tel: FREEphone 0808 1800 358 96 Brambling B77 5PG Vat GB860621831 Co Reg #04120771 Http://www.phaedsys.com<http://www.phaedsys.com/> chills_at_xxxxxx

Sent: 01 June 2015 10:09
To: systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] [EC 61508 and cybersecurity

Where can I find details of the content of IEC 62443, and of the IEC workgroup?

Martyn

On 01/06/2015 09:42, RICQUE Bertrand (SAGEM DEFENSE SECURITE) wrote: There is currently an IEC workgroup on what to do with IEC 61508 and cybersecurity (IEC 62443). The topic is thus not ignored.

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systemsafety_at_xxxxxx Received on Wed Jun 03 2015 - 14:01:49 CEST

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